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infinite_spin 14 minutes ago [-]
At this point I think it's necessary to notify anyone who has been tracked after a fixed number of days, unless a court order is used to extend that period. An officer using this for legitimate reasons should have few problems getting that court order. This would at least give people some amount of safety net from stalking by LE.
jauer 2 minutes ago [-]
I think this or similar accountability measures is where we'll need to end up with this kind of technology. It's too useful for catching vehicle theft rings and similar kinds of highly disruptive criminal networks to abandon the technology entirely.
LOVEINT has been a thing for as long as electronic surveillance has existed. We fire and/or prosecute people for it. We didn't turn out back on those capabilities.
I'd like to see someone using systems not available to the general public to to look up info on people without a legitimate purpose be treated as a kind of aggravated stalking.
Government employees should be held to a higher standard because they are in a position of public trust, but TBH people at companies like Google, Meta, Verizon, Comcast abusing internal tools for this should be similarly held accountable because they have access to resources far beyond e.g. one hobbyist logging TPMS IDs on passing vehicles.
duxup 2 hours ago [-]
I don't understand why a regular patrol officer would / should even have access to something like this without some level of extra authorization. They're not detectives running an open investigation ...
In this case this officer was searching numerous networks over and over again, that alone should trigger some metrics that raise the question "uh ... why?"
pudgywalsh 1 hours ago [-]
You never worked for a startup where the CEO demanded administrator rights to everything just because he's CEO?
skeeter2020 5 minutes ago [-]
patrol officer is more like a junior QA in your analogy
duxup 29 minutes ago [-]
Patrol officer isn’t the equivalent of a CEO.
threatofrain 5 minutes ago [-]
I've built such software for bigger police departments. I listen to what the stakeholders want and balance them against users.
If the stakeholder wants a way to bypass this or that, then that's what's going to happen. Neither users nor stakeholders will want to be handcuffed in the name of public accountability. Nobody wants to be handcuffed, really.
newsomix9xl 2 hours ago [-]
Pacheco has been one of the top users of the Flock system this year, according to data The Light previously obtained from the city. The most common reason inputted since April for her searches has been “traffic infraction.”
duxup 2 hours ago [-]
Just thinking of that reason, I don't even know what Flock would tell you at that point. It would tell you where else they were? Not going to do any good. Makes that reason pretty suspicious.
none2585 1 hours ago [-]
Because no one important cares and no one will do anything about it.
sixothree 51 minutes ago [-]
Celebrities get special treatment in hospitals built into pretty much all EHR software. Names are obfuscated, while searches and views get instantly flagged. I highly suspect the same thing exists here.
nickthegreek 2 hours ago [-]
How else could they have arrested that wisconsin guy for driving to michigan to purchase cannabis? You know, apparently a totally valid use for such technology..
King-Aaron 2 hours ago [-]
It was only about an hour ago I saw yet another mindless commentator on one of these threads saying "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about".
tintor 2 hours ago [-]
People who have nothing to hide get ambushed by police at gunpoint, because surveillance system misidentifies them.
Walf 2 hours ago [-]
The funniest response I've read to this type of reasoning went something like this: a family gathering; topic of privacy came up; boomer-type trotted out the "nothing to hide" line; younger relative asked them if they enjoy a particular type of sexual intercourse with their spouse; red faces and looks of horror; the asker reminded everyone that privacy is important and it doesn't mean one is doing anything wrong.
veec_cas_tant 34 minutes ago [-]
Isn’t the easy reply here that there is no expectation of privacy in public, unlike in one’s home? There are tens, or more likely hundreds of millions of cameras recording outside in the United States.
skeeter2020 2 minutes ago [-]
it's not about privacy in the moment, courts have already said flock is equivalent to warrantless tracking; it's more about privacy in all time-based aspects of your life: where you go, when you go there and the multitude of second order details you can easily infer from this.
Walf 25 minutes ago [-]
It's not that simple. If you were in public, going about your business, but someone followed you around perpetually, noting down everything you did, you should feel stalked and harassed. That is exactly what these machines are doing. Being in public means that you're not hiding any one part of your behaviour, but nor are you telling everyone where you've been and where you're going, etc.
Analemma_ 57 minutes ago [-]
The underlying principle here is that secrecy and privacy are not the same thing. The famous illustrative example is that when you’re taking a shit it’s no secret what you’re doing in there, but most people still prefer not to be watched when they do it.
rationalist 1 hours ago [-]
"Does your phone have a passcode? What are you hiding? Can I look through your text messages?"
newsomix9xl 2 hours ago [-]
These risks were said to be theoretical what ifs? But headlines are showing that they are quite real problems.
Who watches the watchers?
edoceo 25 minutes ago [-]
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? is a question that is roughly 2000 years old. Still no good answer.
The journalists uncovering this are doing good and necessary work. We need more transparency. Perhaps every search needs to be tied to a specific case and then made public after some time period.
sixothree 45 minutes ago [-]
There was a time when you could paste a reddit username into an online tool and it would build a profile of the person in question. And when I came across one of these "if you have nothing to hide..." people, I did just that. After I asked them how the weather was and how their dog was doing they deleted their account. Lightweights.
This is actually one of the more limited and benign risks of voluntarily installing a municipal/private panopticon system owned by a corporation.
Because of the motivations and degrees of agency associated with under-regulated capitalism, derived data about vehicles and people will be stored indefinitely because it has value to be extracted, to be sold and leased, to the highest bidder, be it to data brokers, police agencies (as is the supposed mission), and intelligence agencies. They won't necessarily be US-based entities either. It will be used to form judgements, discriminate, make inferences, and accusations about people with limited or wrong "evidence" anytime between now, days, years, and who knows for how long in the distant future. No privacy and unknowable risks of misuse and abuse that manifest with use of new technology developed or "connections" made with new information at any time in the future.
Tostino 2 hours ago [-]
Wonder how quick this will get removed off the front page, like the last one about a woman pulled over at gunpoint multiple times because the ALPR kept making a mistake.
I went back and got transcripts for the rest of the meetings for the day, and after saying it was not up for a vote today, two of the commissioners attempted to push it through within 10 min of the end of day, but it ended up failing in a tie. So, decision is delayed, and there is actually a chance of fighting these being put up, as well as the ones already there.
vips7L 2 hours ago [-]
> Wonder how quick this will get removed off the front page
YC’s an investor after all
sublinear 1 hours ago [-]
That's not why these are getting flagged.
The tech angle is very weak otherwise too similar to the ordinary news. It's not that we don't care or even disagree.
I'm not saying this to stir an argument either. I'm just giving an honest answer why the rest of us ordinary folk flag these. They go into the same bin as most of the AI posts.
As well, I can't speak for everyone, but the pushback replies to my comment here (if any) would likely be assumed bots/paid engagement.
This problem isn't unique to HN either. The discussion can be fine sometimes, especially if it's more about the tech than the politics, but if people wanted reddit or the ordinary news they'd be over there and wouldn't come here. You can bang your drum over there.
newsomix9xl 1 hours ago [-]
The tech angle is weak? This is about the impact of tech, on privacy, surveillance, and society.
This is a crime that could not be committed without AI, the internet, and relatively inexpensive cameras using solar panels. It is a very tech oriented crime that could not be committed 30 years ago.
Tostino 52 minutes ago [-]
If the tech angle is so weak, why is YC invested in the company?
They are enabling a different type of mass surveillance than was possible before due to the new tech available today for searching through mass amounts of video and audio, and aggregating data from all sources in one easy to use interface.
2 hours ago [-]
2 hours ago [-]
pudgywalsh 1 hours ago [-]
I don't see a connection to Flock specifically in this lovers' spat. If it wasn't Flock it would be any number of other things. This is a literally-who-cares incident that is being built up into something it isn't.
It's like saying she drove a Ford police car during these activities therefore Ford is evil, QED.
It's more worthy of discussion noting New Bedford is a shithole and the armpit of Mass.
newsomix9xl 1 hours ago [-]
Its a good example of those who say "surveillance systems can and will be used inappropriately" - a jilted lover cop with access is exactly the kind of irrational person who could do so.
A person with a Ford can do all the things car owners can do. But very few people are trusted with access to ALPR cameras.
So: I disagree.
I have no qualms with New Bedford and I'm sure it has lots of, or even mostly, upright police officers who follow the law.
pudgywalsh 1 hours ago [-]
The world is full of and depends on trusted people. You're attacking technology and tools rather than a person that abused their trust to the community.
New Bedford being a dump is a non-sequitur; it has as much connection and relevance to the incident as does Flock.
newsomix9xl 1 hours ago [-]
I am not attacking tools or people. This article and my statements aren't attacks. The article is an (alleged) fact, and mine are opinions.
I didn't bring up New Bedford.
I agree trust is good. I also believe Flock has implemented some auditing tool to flag frivolous searches which is why these cases are popping up.
I am not against trust, but verifying those who we trust are trustworthy is important, I think.
pudgywalsh 54 minutes ago [-]
I'm using it as a literary device and I think you're reading my post too literally.
If we assume surveillance tools will be use inappropriately, that alone is not justification to do away with it.
As with nearly all tools comes great responsibility.
The same argument can be made for police carrying weapons.
Some places like the UK deny the police weapons but have surveillance up the ass.
10 minutes ago [-]
lux-lux-lux 1 hours ago [-]
There’s a difference between the abuse potential of ‘a car’ and ‘a nationwide surveillance network that tracks your location any time you’re on a public road’
pudgywalsh 1 hours ago [-]
If she used a GPS tracker instead of an ALPR as alleged, would you be demanding they be outlawed?
As it stands they're $20 on Amazon with dozens to choose from.
atmavatar 47 minutes ago [-]
No need to outlaw the device.
If the cop used an unauthorized GPS tracker without a warrant, you could take them to court for a Fourth Amendment violation and stand a pretty good chance at winning.
Even if you want to argue it was done purely as a personal citizen vs. citizen matter, you could almost certainly win a lawsuit for harassment and stalking.
There's plenty of precedent for both types of cases.
Flock cameras are stalking at scale, and they should not be tolerated.
veec_cas_tant 30 minutes ago [-]
I think even the most ardent supporter of CCTV or Flock or whatever would agree that misuse should be treated harshly. Zero difference between Flock and any number of investigative powers afforded to the government, many without a warrant. Misuse by an officer should be very heavily punished.
nancyminusone 16 minutes ago [-]
If you do this as an individual, this could get you anywhere from a misdemeanor to a felony in some states. If you're a cop and do it, it counts as a 4th amendment search.
Neither "make the device" illegal, but they do make using them for the designed purpose illegal. In the same way owning a sawzall is legal, but using one to cut down all flock cameras in your town is illegal. As it stands, they're about $100 on Amazon with several options to choose from.
pamcake 47 minutes ago [-]
I would question why individual police officers would be able to plant pucks administered by the agency and track using (a combination of third-party and) agency infrastructure at will without oversight and properly reviewed papertrail.
Nobody's calling for outright banning of cameras. It's about the way these and their feeds are being deployed, integrated and utilized.
10 minutes ago [-]
jjj123 51 minutes ago [-]
If all people had to have gps trackers installed on their cars and that data was easily accessible to cops, yeah I would demand they be outlawed.
27183 52 minutes ago [-]
A more relevant question is why does some knuckle dragging street pig have access to surveillance tech? This should be regulated exactly the same as wiretapping--specific reasons, specific cases, specific authorization, etc. It should not have been possible for this piece of shit to access the system at all.
LOVEINT has been a thing for as long as electronic surveillance has existed. We fire and/or prosecute people for it. We didn't turn out back on those capabilities.
I'd like to see someone using systems not available to the general public to to look up info on people without a legitimate purpose be treated as a kind of aggravated stalking.
Government employees should be held to a higher standard because they are in a position of public trust, but TBH people at companies like Google, Meta, Verizon, Comcast abusing internal tools for this should be similarly held accountable because they have access to resources far beyond e.g. one hobbyist logging TPMS IDs on passing vehicles.
In this case this officer was searching numerous networks over and over again, that alone should trigger some metrics that raise the question "uh ... why?"
If the stakeholder wants a way to bypass this or that, then that's what's going to happen. Neither users nor stakeholders will want to be handcuffed in the name of public accountability. Nobody wants to be handcuffed, really.
Who watches the watchers?
The journalists uncovering this are doing good and necessary work. We need more transparency. Perhaps every search needs to be tied to a specific case and then made public after some time period.
;-)
See also: https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/06/06/web-of-knowledge/
Because of the motivations and degrees of agency associated with under-regulated capitalism, derived data about vehicles and people will be stored indefinitely because it has value to be extracted, to be sold and leased, to the highest bidder, be it to data brokers, police agencies (as is the supposed mission), and intelligence agencies. They won't necessarily be US-based entities either. It will be used to form judgements, discriminate, make inferences, and accusations about people with limited or wrong "evidence" anytime between now, days, years, and who knows for how long in the distant future. No privacy and unknowable risks of misuse and abuse that manifest with use of new technology developed or "connections" made with new information at any time in the future.
Like I said in the last thread... I went and spoke at my county commission meeting today against these cameras: https://www.youtube.com/live/1OmEmpL-7qY?t=720
I went back and got transcripts for the rest of the meetings for the day, and after saying it was not up for a vote today, two of the commissioners attempted to push it through within 10 min of the end of day, but it ended up failing in a tie. So, decision is delayed, and there is actually a chance of fighting these being put up, as well as the ones already there.
YC’s an investor after all
The tech angle is very weak otherwise too similar to the ordinary news. It's not that we don't care or even disagree.
I'm not saying this to stir an argument either. I'm just giving an honest answer why the rest of us ordinary folk flag these. They go into the same bin as most of the AI posts.
As well, I can't speak for everyone, but the pushback replies to my comment here (if any) would likely be assumed bots/paid engagement.
This problem isn't unique to HN either. The discussion can be fine sometimes, especially if it's more about the tech than the politics, but if people wanted reddit or the ordinary news they'd be over there and wouldn't come here. You can bang your drum over there.
This is a crime that could not be committed without AI, the internet, and relatively inexpensive cameras using solar panels. It is a very tech oriented crime that could not be committed 30 years ago.
They are enabling a different type of mass surveillance than was possible before due to the new tech available today for searching through mass amounts of video and audio, and aggregating data from all sources in one easy to use interface.
It's like saying she drove a Ford police car during these activities therefore Ford is evil, QED.
It's more worthy of discussion noting New Bedford is a shithole and the armpit of Mass.
A person with a Ford can do all the things car owners can do. But very few people are trusted with access to ALPR cameras.
So: I disagree.
I have no qualms with New Bedford and I'm sure it has lots of, or even mostly, upright police officers who follow the law.
New Bedford being a dump is a non-sequitur; it has as much connection and relevance to the incident as does Flock.
I didn't bring up New Bedford.
I agree trust is good. I also believe Flock has implemented some auditing tool to flag frivolous searches which is why these cases are popping up.
I am not against trust, but verifying those who we trust are trustworthy is important, I think.
If we assume surveillance tools will be use inappropriately, that alone is not justification to do away with it.
As with nearly all tools comes great responsibility.
The same argument can be made for police carrying weapons.
Some places like the UK deny the police weapons but have surveillance up the ass.
As it stands they're $20 on Amazon with dozens to choose from.
If the cop used an unauthorized GPS tracker without a warrant, you could take them to court for a Fourth Amendment violation and stand a pretty good chance at winning.
Even if you want to argue it was done purely as a personal citizen vs. citizen matter, you could almost certainly win a lawsuit for harassment and stalking.
There's plenty of precedent for both types of cases.
Flock cameras are stalking at scale, and they should not be tolerated.
Neither "make the device" illegal, but they do make using them for the designed purpose illegal. In the same way owning a sawzall is legal, but using one to cut down all flock cameras in your town is illegal. As it stands, they're about $100 on Amazon with several options to choose from.
Nobody's calling for outright banning of cameras. It's about the way these and their feeds are being deployed, integrated and utilized.